Hi,
This is a post I have been looking forward to for some time. When I started to plot all the Stellungen, I chose to plot those, which were not covered by Hoffmann II/1 p. 329. But not everyone have the fine works by Hoffmann and for completeness it would also be appropriate to have all the Stellungen. (I still miss Southern Finland). My thought was also that I didn't want just to "copy-cat" Hoffmann so I dug out the original sources. You will see that there are differences between my and Hoffmann's map. Some sites have changed their names, I have used a 20 JUN 1944 baseline. My greatest surprise was a number of Stellungen 3'ord, which are only equipped with ONE W-R. They have no names, but are designated with an Arabic number/a roman number. The roman number coincides with the number of the Luftgau in the area where the Stellung is situated. My theory is, that these Stellungen originally were subordinate to the Lg. and supported the FLUKO organization. When the Ln-Rgt and the Lg.-Nachr.-Rgt were subordinated to the same organization, these Stellungen were adopted into the overall reporting net. Interestingly enough there recently was a discussion on another forum concerning a stand-alone W-R in Poland, this we can see now, was not an exception, but a part of larger whole.
Please see the links on:
http://www.gyges.dk/Flum%20and%20Jagd.htm
bregds
SES
Flum & Jäger Leit Stellungen in Western Europe.
Re: Flum & Jäger Leit Stellungen in Western Europe.
Even two of them - one in Silesia region (southern Poland), one near Gdansk/Danzig (northern Poland)!SES hat geschrieben:Interestingly enough there recently was a discussion on another forum concerning a stand-alone W-R in Poland
That's a VERY interesting discovery, SES!
But I still wonder how a W-R could pick an airborne target without the backbone of a Fernsuchgeraet (Freya, etc.)? W-R's beam has been said to be very narrow, thus useless for effective searching. That really embarasses me
brgds,
Michal
Hi,
I have earlier commented on the feasibility of using a pencil beam radar for air search. But it was Luftwaffe practice. In Denmark some radar-sites subordinate to the FLUKOs even used the Würzburg Dora. Think if you fix the elevation to correspond with a given distance at a given altitude and do a sector search, there is a chance of picking up an aircraft and then track it. The advantage is that you get position and altitude. With a Freya the search is easier, but you do not get an altitude. At this point in time the challenge was not to track single aircraft, but to establish the track of the Bomber Stream so this system could also have been used merely to track chaff.
bregds
SES
I have earlier commented on the feasibility of using a pencil beam radar for air search. But it was Luftwaffe practice. In Denmark some radar-sites subordinate to the FLUKOs even used the Würzburg Dora. Think if you fix the elevation to correspond with a given distance at a given altitude and do a sector search, there is a chance of picking up an aircraft and then track it. The advantage is that you get position and altitude. With a Freya the search is easier, but you do not get an altitude. At this point in time the challenge was not to track single aircraft, but to establish the track of the Bomber Stream so this system could also have been used merely to track chaff.
bregds
SES
-
Kratluskeren
Gemazusatz
Hej SES
Did the single W-R in Poland have a Gema Zusatz. If that was the case the radar could see up to 120 km and operated with a much wider angle. First the target was locked on to by the Gema and when the target came within range of the W-R this radar took over and gave the altitude.
Did the single W-R in Poland have a Gema Zusatz. If that was the case the radar could see up to 120 km and operated with a much wider angle. First the target was locked on to by the Gema and when the target came within range of the W-R this radar took over and gave the altitude.
Hello,
I can't say about these two cases of single W-Rs - they're not even listed anywhere...
And from the whole bunch of the regular sites I can say of only two, which supposedly had W-Rs with Gema-Zusatz. What's interesting - both were coastal and both were 1'Ordnung. That's not a coincidence, methinks.
brgds,
M.
P.S. I've heard the name "Gema-Zusatz" few times, but never managed to discover what it was exactly?
I can't say about these two cases of single W-Rs - they're not even listed anywhere...
And from the whole bunch of the regular sites I can say of only two, which supposedly had W-Rs with Gema-Zusatz. What's interesting - both were coastal and both were 1'Ordnung. That's not a coincidence, methinks.
brgds,
M.
P.S. I've heard the name "Gema-Zusatz" few times, but never managed to discover what it was exactly?
Hi,
The GEMA-Zustaz was a modification to the W-R entailing the addition of 2 Freya dipoles, and presumably the Freya transmitter and receiver to the W-R. This greatly facilitated the search by the W-R operators, when the track was handed over from the Freya operators. The aircraft could then be tracked in azimuth before it came into range of the W-R. An additional advantage was that the GEMA-Zt. was less affected by the Window, which could paralyze the W-R. The normal deployment pattern seems to have been that each Stellung eventually became equipped with one "normal" W-R and one with GEMA-Zt (FuSE 65 G). On the picture attached you can see the Freya dipoles in the center of the reflector.
bregds
SES.
The GEMA-Zustaz was a modification to the W-R entailing the addition of 2 Freya dipoles, and presumably the Freya transmitter and receiver to the W-R. This greatly facilitated the search by the W-R operators, when the track was handed over from the Freya operators. The aircraft could then be tracked in azimuth before it came into range of the W-R. An additional advantage was that the GEMA-Zt. was less affected by the Window, which could paralyze the W-R. The normal deployment pattern seems to have been that each Stellung eventually became equipped with one "normal" W-R and one with GEMA-Zt (FuSE 65 G). On the picture attached you can see the Freya dipoles in the center of the reflector.
bregds
SES.
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W-R mittl.Suchgerät.
Hi,
I go nuts. Some will say: "Impossible Ln-Nerds are nuts", but this Stand-alone W-R keeps nagging me. In connection with the Wassermann research I consulted Trenkle for the 1.000.000 time, just to check on the numbers of Was Ms built. Please see attachment. Great was my surprise, when I saw 1050 W-Rs listed as Flakleitgerät (I guess it should be Jägerleitgerät) AND 452 W-R listed as mittl.Suchgerät under the heading Flum. This strongly suggests that the W-R indeed was used in a Stand-alone configuration and as search-radar. But 452 ?
I am convinced that this figure includes those used by the KM as Seetakt/Art and the rest were used in the Flugmeldemess Stellungen.
mfg
SES
I go nuts. Some will say: "Impossible Ln-Nerds are nuts", but this Stand-alone W-R keeps nagging me. In connection with the Wassermann research I consulted Trenkle for the 1.000.000 time, just to check on the numbers of Was Ms built. Please see attachment. Great was my surprise, when I saw 1050 W-Rs listed as Flakleitgerät (I guess it should be Jägerleitgerät) AND 452 W-R listed as mittl.Suchgerät under the heading Flum. This strongly suggests that the W-R indeed was used in a Stand-alone configuration and as search-radar. But 452 ?
I am convinced that this figure includes those used by the KM as Seetakt/Art and the rest were used in the Flugmeldemess Stellungen.mfg
SES
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Hi SES,
for me there are at least two interesting aspects :
the first one is that with the 1st Jan 1945 the new devices Jagdhaus X, Forsthaus X and Jagdwagen had been expected to be available from June 1945! What a timing a this stage of war!
The other one is the large number of FuMB devices: 247 pieces of the three different types. I´m irritated where all of those "beacons" have been used.
Have we missed to crosscheck all of the up to now known posts with this emourmous number?
Eric
for me there are at least two interesting aspects :
the first one is that with the 1st Jan 1945 the new devices Jagdhaus X, Forsthaus X and Jagdwagen had been expected to be available from June 1945! What a timing a this stage of war!
The other one is the large number of FuMB devices: 247 pieces of the three different types. I´m irritated where all of those "beacons" have been used.
Have we missed to crosscheck all of the up to now known posts with this emourmous number?
Eric
And I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway...
Hi,
Ads you know there were experiments, new projects launched, even new systems fielded and new bunkers built right up to 9 MAY 1945 0001
. And so was the situation with radars. E.g. in Denmark the Ln-Dienst had completed the infrastructure required to install several Freya Verbunkert. In Hanstholm a See-Elefant was about to be raised and the Russel mast was 1/3 complete. It was like a Duracel battery. The organization kept working until the last second.
The FuMB systems were not beacons but Funkmess Beoabtungs Geräte, and we have not missed these systems. Please see:
http://www.gyges.dk/Funkaufklaerungsdienst.htm
mfg
SES
Ads you know there were experiments, new projects launched, even new systems fielded and new bunkers built right up to 9 MAY 1945 0001
. And so was the situation with radars. E.g. in Denmark the Ln-Dienst had completed the infrastructure required to install several Freya Verbunkert. In Hanstholm a See-Elefant was about to be raised and the Russel mast was 1/3 complete. It was like a Duracel battery. The organization kept working until the last second.The FuMB systems were not beacons but Funkmess Beoabtungs Geräte, and we have not missed these systems. Please see:
http://www.gyges.dk/Funkaufklaerungsdienst.htm
mfg
SES