Französische HONEST JOHN in Deutschland

[kuhlmac]

Die Lager für konventionelle Munition, sind doch diese Ausbuchtungen an den Wegen im Wald?

Jo, am Ende der Wege bzw. darüber waren dann jeweils die Bunker.

[eod]

Hallo,
im Bereich Villingen sind mir 2 vorgefertigte Stellungen für diese erwähnten franz. Mittelstrecken-Raketen bekannt. Sind U-förmige Erdwälle mit ca. 4-6m Höhe im Wald zwischen Villingen und Pfaffenweiler die sich auf einem früheren Standortübungsplatz der franz. Garnision befinden. Ausrichtung ist nach nord-ost. Seltsamerweise war diese Gelände bis zum Abzug auch umzäunt...

Kann gerne mal Bilder nachreichen, falls es noch jemand interessiert

PS: Der erwähnte StÜbPl war bis 1945 ein Munitionslager der Wehrmacht, was kurz vor der Kapitulation gesprengt wurde... Sondierung ist in den 90er erfolgt mit dem Resultat von über 60tonnen Fundmunition!

[Oliver]

Hi,

ich denke Bilder dürften die meisten von uns hier interessieren, auchn wenn es nicht mehr all zu viel zu erkennen gibt.

Gruß
Oliver

[eod]

Hallo Oliver,
werden nachgereicht... Sobald der Schnee verschwunden ist
Das Sonderwaffenlager bei Tannheim kenne ich auch noch, laut Aussage eines ehemaligen dt. Wachmanns war da seit 1975 nur noch konvent. Mun. für die franz. Garnisonen Villingen und Donaueschingen gelagert...

Gruss,
Micha

[WestCoast]

Hallo,
im Bereich Villingen sind mir 2 vorgefertigte Stellungen für diese erwähnten franz. Mittelstrecken-Raketen bekannt. Sind U-förmige Erdwälle mit ca. 4-6m Höhe im Wald zwischen Villingen und Pfaffenweiler die sich auf einem früheren Standortübungsplatz der franz. Garnision befinden. Ausrichtung ist nach nord-ost. Seltsamerweise war diese Gelände bis zum Abzug auch umzäunt...

Welchen Zweck hatten diese Stellungen?

Die können doch nur der Ausbildung gedient haben.

Die Honest John hatten eine Reichweite von unter 50 km. Im Ernstfall hätte man die kaum in diesen Stellungen gelassen, bis der WP vor dem Schwarzwald steht. Das hätte auch unter den optimistischsten Szenarios des WP ein paar Tage gedauert, in denen man Nuklearwaffen tunlichst gut versteckt (oder weiter östlich zum Einsatz gebracht) hätte.

[eod]

Aufgrund des Nato Austritts der Franzosen (1966) ist es ja nicht zutreffend, das sich die in Deutschland stationierten franz. Streitkräfte an der Nato Verteidigungsplanung beteiligt hätten!?

[WestCoast]

Aufgrund des Nato Austritts der Franzosen (1966) ist es ja nicht zutreffend, das sich die in Deutschland stationierten franz. Streitkräfte an der Nato Verteidigungsplanung beteiligt hätten!?

Mit dem Ausscheiden Frankreichs aus der militärischen Organisation der NATO zogen aber auch die Amerikaner die Nuklearsprengköpfe für die französischen Honest John ab. Damit war deren nuklearer Einsatz ohnehin beendet. (Ob die Franzosen eigene konventionelle Sprengköpfe besaßen, weiß ich nicht.)

So oder so wäre es aber nach meiner Einschätzung nicht sinnvoll gewesen, die Honest-John-Raketen nach Ausbruch eines Kriegs zwischen NATO und WP in einer dem Gegner vermutlich bekannten Friedensstellung zu belassen.

[eod]

Wie ich heute erfuhr, wurden beide Stellungen in den 90er Jahren begradigt.
Auf den Bildern kann man nur noch die Umrisse grob erkennen, der aufgeschüttete Schutzwall war ursprünglich ca. 5m hoch. Dieser wurde abgetragen und im Innern verfüllt. Früher waren die Innennmaße ca. 30x20m und der Boden mit vorgefertigten Betonplatten abgedeckt.

Im Donaueschinger Bereich http://maps.google.de/maps?q=donaueschi ... 8&t=h&z=17 soll es im Wald die genau selben Stellungen gegeben haben, diese wurden etwa zur gleichen Zeit wo das Munlager bei Tannheim verschwand, auch eingeebnet.

Ich kann mich noch an den Tag der offenen Tür (Mitte der 80er) in Villingen und Donaueschingen erinnern, damals waren ua. auch Trägerfahrzeuge Pluton auf Basis des AMX30 zu besichtigen. Dieses System war der Nachfolger der HJ.

Hier noch ein interessanter Artikel zu diesem Thema: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-41458263.html

[eod]

Guter Link unter anderem über das SAS Weisswald (Tannheimer Forst) bei Villingen mit Bildern und Lageplan ua. vom SAS;)
http://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?h ... de%201.htm
http://honest.john.free.fr/index2.htm

15th MSL Detachment at Villingen. Also shown in the photo is COL Maragi, CO of the 301st GA.

(Source: Email from Jean Pierre Guigonis, 301 GA, French Army)
I served in the 301 group of artillery, Villingen, Germany from 1965 to 1970. When I arrived at the unit, I was a sergeant and I worked in the 4ieme (4th) section of the security and support battery (BSS). We were responsible for guarding the SAS and for providing security to the convoy of nucleaire ammunition.

I worked with the 15th Missile Detachment from 1965 to 1966. (Attached is also a group photo of the 15th MSL detachment with Colonel MARAGI, commander of the 301 GA).

I would like to contact former members of the 15th MSL Det and am looking for additional information on the following topics:

1) Information on the headquarters staff of the detachment.
2) Information on how many US soldiers worked for the perception (?) and convoy escort.
3) Information on the US staff at the depot of Tannheim (Weisswald).
4) Does anyone have details on the special weapons that were stored at the depot in 1965/1966?

You can find more information on the 301st GA Reunion website (see Related Links).

(Source: Information provided by Klaus Stark and Rick Anders)
From 1951 to 1960, the French Forces in Germany (FFA) were comprised of two Army Corps stationed in the former French Zone of Occupation of Germany:
UNITS HOME STATION
I (FR) Corps Freiburg
4th Infantry Division Freiburg divisional units stationed at garisons between Rastatt and Lindau; deployed to Algeria late 1950s
5th Armored Division Landau divisional units stationed at garisons between Neustadt a.d. Weinstrasse and Münsingen; deployed to Algeria late 1950s
II (FR) Corps Koblenz
1st Armored Division Trier divisional units stationed at garisons between Koblenz and Fritzlar
3rd Infantry Division Koblenz divisional units stationed at garisons between Wittlich and Saarlouis

FFA Headquarters was located at Baden-Baden and was an Army-level command under Central Army Group.

Actual troop strength, especially in the latter years, was much below authorized strengths due to military manpower needs in Indochina (1946-54) and subsequently in Algeria (1954-62). With the formation of the German Bundeswehr in the late 1950s, the French government decided to resize and restructure its forces in Germany and to concentate them in an area around Freiburg and Trier:
UNITS HOME STATION
FFA Baden-Baden HQ FFA took on a Corps-level command and control function within CENTAG
1st Armored Division Trier
3rd Infantry Division Freiburg The 3rd Division was relieved by elements of the newly former III (GE) Corps in Koblenz and relocated to Freiburg where it replaced the 4th (FR) Inf Div in 1957.
The newly formed III (GE) Corps replaced the II (FR) Corps in Koblenz and assumed the responsibilities previously performed by that French corps in the northern sector of CENTAG.

According to the Nuclear Weapons Databook, Vol V, The US and France signed an agreement ("The Agreement for Cooperation in the Operations of Atomic Weapon Systems for Mutual Defense Purposes") at Paris on 27 July 1961 that entered into force on 9 October 1961 and facilitated the use of US warheads on French launchers. By 1965, these constitued - two fighter-bomber wings of 4th ATAF; Honest John battalions of FFA; and Nike-Hercules units of 1er CATAC. (The agreement was similar to the agreements signed between the US and eight other allied countries.)

The FFA apparently formed four HONEST JOHN units which were nuclear capable and supported by four separate US Army missile detachments (see 576th Arty Group). At least two, if not all four, were rocket artillery batteries within a heavy field artillery regiment assigned to each division. The type heavy artillery regiment (Régiment d'Artillerie Lourde Divisionaire - RALD) of a 'Division 59' (French TOE) infantry and armor divisions of the period was organized as follows:
Regimental Headquarters
HQ Battery
Observation and Calibration Platoon
Fire Direction Platoon
Radar Platoon
Technical Platoon (muzzle velocity and weather)
Service Battery
2 Heavy Artillery Battalions
HQ & Service Battery (BCS)
2 Batteries (4 howitzers each)(155mm)
Rocket Battalion (some battalions have only 1x battery)
HQ & Service Battery (BCS)
1 Battery (2x Honest John)
1 Battery (2x Lacrosse) [1]
[1] According to Phillip A. Karber, Nuclear Weapons and the US Army in Europe, 1953-1989, France evaluated the LACROSSE guided nuclear missile system but decided against it - so it was never fielded.

The four US Army artillery detachments supporting FFA were: the 6th, 9th, 15th and 16th Arty Dets.

The 9th and 16th were originally based in Villingen with the 15th Arty Det, but relocated to Radolfzell and Saarlouis respectively, after being attached to the 576th Arty Gp.

Originally, these units were organized under the 512th Arty Group in Urlau, Germany. In March 1963, the 576th Arty Group was formed and all nulear warhead custodial units supporting French Army and Air Force units (the 357th supported the French Nike-Hercules battalions) in Germany were placed under the command of the new group.

(Source: Email from Rick Anders and Klaus Sturm, Germany)
Report on the French HONEST JOHN Units

A total of five French artillery regiments were equipped with the HONEST JOHN rocket system. Two of the regiments (32º and 68º) were assigned to French divisions in Freiburg, Germany and Trier, Germany. The other three (301º, 302º and 303º) were part of the Reserves Générales (Army troops) or assigned to FFA (French Forces in Germany).

Each of the divisional artillery regiments were comprised of two battalions (I and II Groupes) with conventional tube artillery and one battalion (III Groupe) with HONEST JOHN rockets. Some sources refer to the HJ unit as the "5th Battery." It is not certain if this is a designation used prior to or after the "III Groupe" designation.

The firing battery of the divisional HJ battalion was comprised of two sections with one HJ rocket launcher each. The exact composition of the army artillery HJ battalion is not known. (Anybody out there who can provide details?) Rick's best guess is that each battalion had four HJ launchers. (Based on these estimates, there would have been a total of 16 launchers - 12 assigned to army artillery; four to divisional artillery.) 1)

As far as nuclear warheads, it is known that the Americans had assigned 100 to the French HONEST JOHN and NIKE units (see information under 576th USAAG). Since apparently only a few of the French NIKE batteries were nuclear certified, it is probable that a large portion of the warheads were reserved for the HJ units. After the nuclear support (and the warheads) had been withdrawn by the US Army (as a consequence of , the French HJ remained in Germany (now with conventional warheads) until the mid-1970s.

1) Source: Les unités Honest John (see Musée de l'artillerie AMAD website)

HJ Group Organization:
The five HJ groups had a similar organization. They were composed of two firing batteries (batteries de tir) and a headquarters and service battery (batterie de commandement et de soutien).

Each firing battery included:
Two sections - each with a launcher;
An assembly and transportation section (section de montage et de livraison);
A survey section (section topographique);
A communications section (section de transmissions).


Divisional Artillery Regiments
With the introduction of the HJ system in 1960, the divisional artillery regiments were redesignated as Régiments d'Artillerie Lourde et d'Engins (R.A.L.E.). The designation changed in mid-1962 to Régiments d'Artillerie Lourde Divisionnaires (R.A.L.D.).

III / 32º R.A.L.D. 1960 unit formed at Villingen, Germany (Quartier Welvert); the remainder of the 32º is located at Müllheim
1961/62 unit relocated to Donaueschingen (Quartier Lyautey) (Did the SAS site at Weisswald serve as the storage site for this unit while stationed in Donaueschingen? - )
1967 relocation of the entire regiment to Stetten a.k.M; now in a conventional-only role

III / 68º R.A.L.D. 1960 unit formed at Trier, Germany (Quartier Belvédère - ); the entire regiment is located at this station
1974 the entire regiment is relocated to Landau

Army Artillery Regiments
Of the three HJ artillery regiments assigned to Army troops, two were French Marines. The units were known as Groupes d'Artillerie (G.A.) or Groupes d"Artillerie de Marine (G.A.Ma.). In July 1970, they were redesignated as Regiments d'Artillerie.

301º G.A. 1959 unit formed at Rastatt, Germany (Quartier Joffre)
1960 unit relocated to Villingen (Quartier Lyautey)
Jul 1970 redesignated as 50º R.A.
Aug-Oct 1976 relocated to Laon-Couvron, France

302º G.A. 1959 unit formed at Rastatt, Germany (Quartier Joffre )
Jul 1960 unit relocated to Radolfzell (Quartier Vauban)
1967/68 unit relocated to Friedrichshafen (Airport)
1969 unit moved to Quartier Durand-Divilliers, Friedrichshafen
Jul 1970 redesignated as 60º R.A.
1975 unit inactivated

303º G.A.Ma. Mar 1960 unit formed at Saarburg
1960 later in the year, the unit was relocated to Saarlouis, Germany (Quartier Ney)
1968 relocated to Caen-Carpiquet, France

Several French units supported the HJ units. Among them was the 351º Groupe d'Artillerie, which was actually a transportation battalion for special weapons (similar to the German Nachschubbataillon Sonderwaffen), and several ammunition companies near the respective home stations that were responsible for the storage of conventional warheads and spare parts for the HJ rockets.

351º G.A. Apr 1962 unit formed at Landau, Germany (Quartier Foch)
Organization:
Headquarters
Hq/Svc Btry
Security Battery
Transportation Battery
Detachments of the 351º were clocated with each of the HJ units
Apr 1964 unit relocated to Kaiserslautern (Quartier Hoche-Marceau)
The Transportation Battery was located at Speyer
1963 a new ammo depot is constructed at Heinzelberg for the 351º
1966 unit relocated to Horb (Quartier Moncey)
Jul 1970 unit is redesignated as the 351º R.A.
Jul 1975 unit is inactivated
US Army Warhead Custodial Support
The final element of support for the French HJ units was comprised of the US Army warhead custodial detachments. These small units were responsible for the storage and security of the nuclear warheads reserved for French use.

6th MSL Det End 1963 - 15 Sep 1966 located at Trier, in support of the 68º R.A.
Ammo Depot (Type J) at Mattheiserwald ()
Barracks: Bldg #2, Quartier Belvédère

9th MSL Det Dec 1961 - Mar 1963 prob located at Villingen, in support of the 32º R.A.
Ammo Depot (Type J) at ???
Barracks: Bldg #?, Quartier ???
Apr 1963 - 15 Sep 1966 located at Radolfzell in support of the 302º G.A.
Ammo Depot (Type J) at Radolfzell-Stahringen ()
Barracks: Bldg #58, Quartier Vauban

15th MSL Det Dec 1961 - 15 Sep 1966 located at Villingen, in support of the 301º G.A.Ma.
Ammo Depot (Type J) at Weisswald in the Tannheimer Forst (was completed around Sept 1963) ()
Barracks: Bldg #2, Quartier Welvert

16th MSL Det Dec 1961 - 15 Sep 1966 located at Saarlouis, in support of the 303º G.A.Ma.
Ammo Depot (Type J) at Wallerfangen ()
Barracks: outside of Quartier Ney
All four missile detachments as well as the 357th MSL Det (which supported the nuclear certified NIKE batteries of the 500 Groupement de Brigades d'Engines (NIKE) ) were originally attached to the 512th US Army Artillery Group (Warhead Support). As of March 1963, the five detachments in support of French units were attached to the 576th Group. Headquarters and Headquarters Detachment of the 576th was located at the Quartier Général Pagezy in Karlsruhe.

With the French leaving the military structure of NATO in 1966, the 576th USAAG and its subordinate detachments were inactivated.

[CliffMcLane]

http://honest.john.free.fr/index2.htm

Cooler Link. Ich sag ja immer: Man muss sich nur zurücklehnen und ne Weile warten, dann kommen die Dinge schon von alleine an die Oberfläche.


CML